One of the most skilled and successful investigators I know grew up on a farm in North Dakota and was pulled over for driving without a license when she was nine. I’m referring to Sue Ann Van Dermyden of Van Dermyden Makus Law Corporation (VMLC).
Sue Ann is nationally recognized for her contributions to the successful evolution of neutral workplace and campus investigations over the last 20 years. She served on the founding board and later as president of the Association of Workplace Investigators (AWI). She has worked on many high-profile investigations, including for the Sacramento Kings on an investigation relating to then-Coach Luke Walton.
Our firms, Public Interest Investigations, Inc. (PII) and VMLC, have collaborated for years. We established T9 Mastered to offer training programs for Title IX investigators, creating content from scratch, something VMLC is carrying forward. I was honored to serve as vice president of AWI during her tenure as president. For years, she has been one of my favorite people to talk shop with. You will enjoy listening in on our Conversation.
[This interview was not recorded but is based on rough notes. While written in the first person, it is a narrative review of our conversation, not a transcript.]
Keith: I sent some sample questions to you. Did any grab your attention?
Sue Ann: Your questions got me thinking about how this field of workplace neutral investigation has evolved. Up until the 1990s, I was a happy litigator. Then I began to see this new thing – investigations by lawyers. I saw this thread of an opportunity and jumped on it starting in 1996. There were already a few pioneers in the field when I came in.
Then the Association of Workplace Investigators (AWI) was formed, which was one of the most significant, even monumental, events for both your firm and mine. That was followed by the political change where Title IX investigations began and we had to be nimble to make that shift. Next, there was Covid and all the changes that brought to our work. Now I think the next big thing is going to be integrating AI, which will raise the conversation about offering clients flat fee arrangements. There have been a lot of changes and there are going to be more.
Keith: How have you changed from all of this?
Sue Ann: Becoming an investigator meant I became a different kind of lawyer. It taps into a core part of my character: I’m really fascinated by people. As an investigator, you need to understand people in a way that you don’t get to as a litigator. Sometimes, there is disputed conduct or disputed motives, but whatever it is, I know that I need to sit in someone else’s seat for a minute. I need to hear their stories and understand their experiences and perspectives.
Keith: Are we truly neutral as a field? There was a passionate debate in the California Labor and Employment section newsletter with plaintiff lawyers arguing that we aren’t neutral and we can’t be. Is there some truth to that?
Sue Ann: I understand the concern of the plaintiff lawyers. We are hired by the company. We brief the company on our findings and the plaintiff lawyers are locked out of that. I get how the critics could ask, “How is this possibly fair?” But at our best, when we are listening, truly listening, I think we have a genuine interest in getting it right. That is why we listen so closely and that is where our neutrality comes from. And most of us have checks and balances built into our processes where others review our work or discuss our cases with us. All of those things help us remain neutral.
Keith: You have an unusual background. Tell us about it and how it has affected your life and your work.
Sue Ann: I grew up on a farm three miles outside of the town of Wahpeton, North Dakota. My birth mother – who located me when I was in my 40s – could not raise me and my Cuban father was not in the picture. I was adopted from an orphanage into a farming family. My adoptive mother suffered from mental illness including bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. I was raised in a very strict religion which was very controlling, very guilt driven.
When you grow up with a mentally ill family member, you become keenly aware of how others are feeling and acting. You become skilled at being hyperalert and learning how to deescalate conflict. As a result, when I walk into a conference room or a boardroom, I am instantly aware of who’s in the room and what their dynamic is. Even at a dinner party, I’m aware of who in the room is engaged and who isn’t. All of these skills help me as an investigator.
Keith: On a lighter note, tell us the story about being pulled over by the police while driving at nine years old!
Sue Ann: I was nine, driving an open-air jeep to take my brother out to the fields where he could pick up a tractor. I was in my PJs and I was so short that my feet couldn’t reach the clutch or the brake without sliding all the way down flush with the seat. As I drove down a dirt road, I saw a sheriff up ahead and I panicked and stopped the Jeep. But doing so caused me to slide down the seat so that it looked like no one was driving the Jeep. That was when we got pulled over.
Keith Our two firms have been very close for many years. You know a little about my shop, and I know a little about yours. Are there things you see in PII that are different from your firm? I’ll answer the same question about your firm.
Sue Ann: There are two things that come to mind. Your firm has a lot of nonlawyer investigators and private investigators, which is something you’ve done exceptionally well. You’ve worked on other types of cases like death penalty cases or the Abu Ghraib prison investigation. Those experiences give you a different perspective and add a lot of value to your work. You’ve also built a great internal culture and have right-sized your firm.
Keith: I have always been in awe of VMLC. You took a small idea and built it into what must be the largest dedicated workplace investigation firm in the country. And you’ve done it while maintaining incredibly high standards of professionalism and excellence. I joke that you want to take over the world, but if you did, it would be a much better world.
Keith: What do you think your strengths are as an investigator?
Sue Ann: I have a knack for looking at a report and being able to quickly, even instantly, identify the strengths and weaknesses. I still review almost every report that goes out of our firm. I think I’m good at strategic thinking, both about what the client needs and our ability to deliver on that. I’m also not afraid of taking on high profile cases.
Keith: What do you wish you could do better?
Sue Ann: As a firm, I would like us to get better about promptness and turning investigations around more quickly. Some of that is not in our control but some of it is. We are not the least expensive firm and I’m okay with that but getting work out more quickly is a goal.
Keith: I think that sometimes our clients are not as discerning about quality and they just want to get the case finished. Do we have higher standards than our clients sometimes?
Sue Ann: Not all investigations are created equal, and we need to be able to make distinctions between them. Sometimes the work has to be done with a focus on excellence and perfection. Sometimes it’s better to just get the work done.
Client communications are incredibly critical but they have to be balanced with our commitment to neutrality. We need to be our client’s strategic partner, giving them the tools they need to answer the questions they have. But we still have to thread the needle between communicating enough while maintaining our independence.
Keith There is a quote from To Kill a Mockingbird where Atticus Finch says, “Every lawyer gets at least one case in his lifetime that affects them personally.” Is there a case like that for you and if so, why?
Sue Ann: It is kind of weird; I have this thing I do at the end of the case where I clean it out from my memory. We do a lot of tough investigations about hard issues like sexual assault, but when the case is done, I put it aside and move on.
Sue Ann: I have a question for you: You bring a lot to this work and have such warmth in how you think and talk about it. Is there one word you could use to describe yourself as an investigator?
Keith: If I had to pick one word, it would be “commitment.” I am not perfect but I am really committed to what investigators do – to peeling back the layers to find out what really happened. There is so much confusion and now disinformation in the world. Having a job that tries to cut through all that is remarkable. My firm’s motto is “The Truth Matters” and it really does. It can be a path out of the darkness.
Have you ever thought about what you might do if you weren’t an investigator?
Sue Ann: I sometimes think about my dream job or my retirement job. I would have loved being a reporter or a news anchor. It is similar to investigation but it’s a little more public facing. I also flirted with the idea of doing a Ted Talk, but I am not sure what I would talk about.
Keith: Let’s do a Ted Talk together! I think we both have a lot to say that others would be interested in. What else should people know about you that they don’t know?
Sue Ann: In the last few years, I’ve gotten knee deep into donkey rescue through this group based in Tennessee, Our Simple Homestead. I’ve adopted a donkey named Moo Moo. He’s in Tennessee and I’m going to visit him later this year.
Keith: I think this is a perfect spot to stop. Send me a picture of Moo Moo!
